To me, KDE's job should be to organize and render windows, application launcher icons, and the like
If I want a virtual machine, I'll use a virtual machine for that
All this "KDE suite" stuff and what not is unnecesarry - some of these are good pieces of software that I like to use, but there's no reason they need any integration with a desktop environment (arguably a few basics like a file manager, VTE and plain text editor are expected and fine but in theory also can be wholly separate)
Also, any integration attempts like making the icons a common asset rather than each application have their own, _fail_ and make things worse, with these integrations applications less often have working icons at all, and more often have mistakes like black icons against a black background making them invisible
> To me, KDE's job should be to organize and render windows, application launcher icons, and the like
I believe you are confusing Plasma, which is KDE's desktop environment, and the KDE Project, which also hosts a lot of applications that can be used with or without Plasma, many of which are multiplatforms. Even on Windows one can use a lot of KDE apps without using their desktop environment, Plasma. It's also totally possible to use Plasma without any of the KDE apps, not even the file manager (Dolphin), the VTE (Konsole), or the simple text editor (Kwrite).
Historically, the desktop environment was KDE (Kool Desktop Environment), but it's been quite a long time since the DE is one among many software that the KDE project works on.
That said, I 100% agree with you on icons, and never used an icon theme :).
KDE has been building tools for decades now. Browsers, email clients, contacts management, you name it. KDE 1 already included a file explorer and [was already developing an office suite at the time](https://kde.org/announcements/1-2-3/1.0/). KDE's suite goes back to its very beginnings.
Plasma is only a small part of KDE's toolkit, and that's why KDE is so popular. Hell, most of Plasma has no business being part of a window manager.
If you just want something to render windows, there are much more minimalist alternatives, such as LXDE, Hyprland, Sway, i3, and so on.
> KDE has been building tools for decades now. Browsers, email clients, contacts management, you name it.
Yes, and it has to be said that the most popular browser engine (used in Chrome, Safari, Opera, Edge, …) has its root in the KDE project as WebKit was originally a fork of KHTML :).
> Also, any integration attempts like making the icons a common asset rather than each application have their own, _fail_ and make things worse, with these integrations applications less often have working icons at all, and more often have mistakes like black icons against a black background making them invisible
One thing the GNOME community got right, despite the clamour and gnashing of teeth.
Consistent cross-app theming support is a pipe dream from the 90s that has never worked, except in manicured screenshots to get karma points on /r/unixporn
The linked site goes against everything the Linux* platform has historically stood for and frankly just sounds like designers whining that they can't design for computers like they used to for print. I see the same fight against customization on the web, where designers keep asking for ways to, for example, override font and font size preferences, default widget styling, prevent/hijack zoom/select/search/context/whatever.
Your UI is a collection of input/output widgets. The vast majority of apps have maybe one or two app-specific widgets and the rest are completely standard. Why the hell do so many developers insist on styling every stupid textbox just they way they like it?? No, fuck you, a textbox is a textbox, your textbox isn't special, if I want texboxes on my screen to be in purple comic sans on a green background, that's exactly what they should look like.
The reason why apps break when custom themes are applied is almost always because a developer made a "white box with a grey border and black text" instead of a "--bg-surface-color box with a --border-color border and --fg-primary-color text".
It's the same with icons - if you want a homepage button, reference the "home" icon. If you want a house/flat/skyscraper/boathouse dropdown, reference the "house" icon. If you use "home" to show a house because that's what it is on your theme, don't be surprised (let alone angry) that I've set home to a picture of a cat and now your dropdown makes no sense.
Yes, sometimes the platform doesn't give you enough tools to adhere to the system theme (although most apps aren't complex enough to run into that), but there are usually workarounds or you can open a bug report. Most "modern" developers, however, just don't. They draw their UI in Figma and set out to make it in code, pixel-for-pixel if possible.
"Right" is a bit of a stretch. Manicured screenshots are a tiny subset of theming requirements. People went to great lengths to theme GTK because, for the longest time, Adwaita was truly atrocious, with poor contrast in inactive windows and retina-burning acid active colours.
KDE solved 99% of the theming requirements by just allowing color customisation and shipping with a default theme that doesn't suck too badly.
the last version of plasma is here to prove your wrong.
open the color panel and tick the option "tint window title bar with accent color"... which used to be just the window decorator title and borders. ... now some dev wanting to post screenshots on Reddit decided the accent color should be a light pastel tone that can be applied to the top elements of the qt application, bringing back the worst of gnome 2 era.
I moved (back) to sway exactly for these reasons. Sure there should be integration between different part of the systems, but each part should be compartmentalized. Both gnome and kde are fine environments but only if you subscribed to the whole thing. XFCE is more modular than both.
This. I tried Neon Stable a while ago and it felt like the developers were already spread thin across the KDE ecosystem. I think more projects like this (while not otherwise intended) will only exacerbate these issues.
I love how 95% of the comments are about anything but the effing article.
Looking forward to a new VM manager. virt-manager is what I use and it's not very maintained: it still has issues on a HiDPI screen where scaling is all messed up. GNOME Boxes is both buggy and featureless in the usual GNOME sense, haven't found much use for it. I think all the focus has been on the virsh CLI and we haven't had a decent VM GUI in a while.
I use Arch and love KDE Plasma. It even has a blue light filter. Am never going back to Windows. KDE runs faster, looks nicer, does not have forced adware and telemetry. Great daily driver.
I have been playing with Cachy and Plasma in a VM and I am probably going to install that on my next PC build that I am planning. I am currently dual booting Ubuntu and Windows. I haven't logged into windows in over 6 months so I probably won't even setup dual boot with my next machine.
Using Cachy after testing some distros. I tried Nobara but it was too limited. Before this I've used Debian based distros (ubuntu, debian), Redhat/RPM (Redhat, Mandrake, OpenSuSe) and even Gentoo.
So far I really like Cachy. It's been great for the bit of gaming I do. I had a bit of audio grief, but installing a different kernel seemed to have fixed the issue. Overall I'm pretty damn happy with it. It was much easier than default Arch. I tried Endeavour and though it was nice, there was something about it I didn't quite like (I don't recall what). I'm off Windows entirely - between shoving their AI stuff and Ads everywhere, after decades of off and on use, Linux is my forever home.
I also really like the BTRFS file system which I didn't know about until installing Cachy. I like the idea of being able to go to a snapshot before I messed something up or a system update did.
I figure if I ever need anything Windows related, I will just load windows in a VM. Gaming wise, mostly the only games you can't play on Linux are Windows games with root kit level anti-cheats. Not sure if that is a downside...
The (much more complicated) middle ground is to put a second GPU in your PC, boot Linux with that GPU, and then reserve the primary GPU for your gaming virtual machine (and pin CPU cores so cache isn't useless while gaming). End result: more reliable gaming experience in a sandboxed environment. There are some anticheats that will detect you're in a VM and lock you out, but there are ways around that if you're persistent enough. Or just don't play such games, which is my preferred approach.
If you need an instance of windows at random periods of time, you can always run it as a VM with VirtualBox or KVM/Qemu... or Karton as headlined in the article.
That is what I use as my main machine - https://i.imgur.com/hbDzVus.png
I have been on this setup for a while and it is absolutely the best - clean, fast and customizable.
I cane back to plasma after about year of gnome. It made me realize how much I dislike gnome. There are just so many issues. Inhad to solve them with extensions, but then it broke on updates. I couldn't get it to have English as language but ISO units.
I had to install an extra app to control startup applications.
Fractional scaling and several displays was wonky, made screen recording impossible. My 60fps display has a stuttery mouse pointer.
Hiding keyboard layouts like Swedish Sami or svdvorak didn't make things better.
Copy and paste not working cross screens (wtf?). Drag and drop not working if you switch windows using alt+tab. Context menus locking focus from the whole desktop: open the nautilus file transfer dialogue and suddenly I couldn't click anywhere else than in nautilus. Having it open and trying to interact with another app just wouldn't work.
At the end had accidentally tried KDE in a VM and realized I wouldn't tolerate a hammer behaving badly. I went back to opensuse the same day.
Gnome2 was a good functional desktop, sure it was copying the 2000s with windows 98/2000 style, but it worked. Hell, even OpenStep is more functional than Gnome3 as a daily computer interface.
Gnome3 targeted a weird mix of incompatible devices, like a windows 8 interface, and kinda failed as a design given the devices it optimized for never took over the market. There's not that many tablets running Gnome or touchscreen laptops anymore.
It's almost like Android took the design team by complete surprise, while they tried to make desktops a tablet experience, but failed at doing both.
> Gnome3 targeted a weird mix of incompatible devices, like a windows 8 interface, and kinda failed as a design given the devices it optimized for never took over the market.
I'm not sure about that. Convertible laptops are quite popular as a product category, and GNOME 3 works great on those. Besides, MATE and Xfce are still around if you prefer a traditional desktop interface.
Nice, I still want to dive into Niri or PaperWM (Niri is inspired by PaperWM but more minimal, needs Wayland and written in Rust where PaperWM is a WM on top of Gnome).
I hear good things about COSMIC as well. But I'm too busy being productive at the moment to mess up my well working NixOS/Vanilla-Gnome based laptop :)
GNOME has great software, nice UI, horrible UX. It's like as if the designers actively tried to make their software as opinionated and as castrated as they physically could
I don't know that it's a grudge per se; people liked KDE 3, so they forked it and stayed on the working thing that they liked. Don't fix what isn't broken.
I wanted to use KDE 4 when it released, but it kept crashing on my machine. I would update it every once in a while and try again but issue would always pop up. By the time "plasma 4.4 is stable" was declared, I had lost interest and started using tiling window managers .
That said KDE 6 is pretty solid. I rarely have issues with it.
It had a lot less features than kde3, all the semantic desktop stuff didn't work and kdepim didn't work either But they did run at 100% cpu very often.
I remember it being very slow and buggy, and missing a lot of features I liked in 3.5. Dolphin also felt like a big downgrade from Konqueror. I didn't start liking KDE again until Plasma 5.
Really? Interesting. I loved KDE3, but hated KDE4 so much (slow, unintuitive UI, bugs) that I haven't looked at it since, preferring Xfce instead. I guess I could give it a spin again...
Dude I've been running Ubuntu with Plasma for almost 3 years now as a daily, and it's perfect. It's what windows 7 could've been. Maybe I'm stuck in my ways, but as a dotnet and devops guy, 2020s was the perfect confluence of open source, works on Linux tooling to fully switch over. Rider, datagrip and vscode, and I don't have to deal with docker or wsl anymore. It's beautiful. I only boot into windows now when I have to deal with .net framework OG stuff, and I'm pretty sure I could kill a weekend and get a VM to boot from my windows nvme so I never have to leave.
FWIW I have always complained about KDE's bugs, but since 6.3 I haven't suffered from anything major for the first time in a decade. Worth checking it out again if you haven't in a while.
Yeah it's solid, I usually only reboot my desktop once a month for updates and I can't recall the last time it crashed (desktop). Sure the occasional app will crash but I don't blame that on Plasma. The other thing I do is run an LTS version of Ubuntu, I got too old to be bothered with updating every 6 months
That's something I think as well. I've tried 4 times through the years, and KDE always felt less stable and solid than Gnome. I guess it's the configurability of KDE that makes it that way.
I like the concept, but I guess maintaining it is no easy task, and people is more motivated to add things than fix them.
In my experience, KDE is more responsive (especially under load) but its code base is less stable. It makes sense: Gnome is pretty minimalist in terms of available UI, uses JavaScript and shell scripts to provide integrations, and exposes quite a small native surface area.
On the other side, KDE consists of almost exclusively native (C++) code, although I believe some tools are written in Python. Great for performance, but C++ has a reputation for a reason.
For what it's worth, the last major release has been very stable. It has also always been stable for me on my Steam Deck. I have a feeling KDE's issues are similar to WordPress': external plugins hooking deep into the native API, making it seem like the software they're integrating with is unstable.
KDE lost me when they moved from the relatively stable (and - let's face it - pretty Windows 9x-style) KDE 3.5 to KDE 4. It was promised as a quantum leap, but Plasma came over as unstable, unfinished, and lacking a lot of the functionality I came to love with the 3.5 stack.
In the end, I gave up, went to window managers instead to full DEs, then to i3, and now am on a Mac.
Still, I remember 3.5 fondly. The last good Linux Desktop Environment (Gnome tried so hard, but always was a bit too 'our way or the highway' when KDE allowed for some customization)
KDE 3 to KDE 4 transition really was painful, it pushed me away as well, but it also happened over 15 years ago. I gave it a shot a few years back, and it was great, much better than modern-day Gnome in my opinion.
Thanks for stating this. It puzzles me how people can still hold a grudge against the transition to KDE4 that happened back in early 2008. It took a while but even KDE4 got pretty good. KDE6 is great and if you follow Nate Graham's blog, you can see the improvements that go into it every week.
> It puzzles me how people can still hold a grudge against the transition to KDE4 that happened back in early 2008.
I don't think it's people holding a grudge, I think it's people who got burned and are hesitant to touch that burner again because they don't want to get burned twice.
Early versions of KDE 4.0 were terrible, and it lasted for a couple of years, but I've found later versions quite solid. Early versions of KDE 5 were relatively stable but were lacking features. I find late 5.X versions and all 6.X version quite robust.
There are still bugs but they do seem to be ironing them out, they go in the right direction.
The only big bugs I notice these days are the occasionnal plasmashell crashes but it comes back on its own. KWin doesn't crash and that's fortunate because on Wayland, that would bring down non KDE apps.
I exclusively use plasma, I'm quite sensitive to instabilities, it's not an issue for me with KDE.
I did avoid the first years of KDE 4 and was using GNOME at that time.
This was true years ago but Gnome slowly removed every feature I liked and put me on an update treadmill for each and every plug-in, and I needed a bunch of them for basic functionality normal desktops provide.
A trivial example: keeping a working weather widget on my taskbar for an update cycle without breaking it was too much to ask for Gnome. I put up with this kind of thing for YEARS before switching to Plasma. Widgets for your taskbar and stable plug-in APIs should be table stakes for a desktop environment, especially if its whole philosophy is one that the core product should be minimal and most functionality should be in plugins.
You know what KDE has? Features. You know what it doesn't have a lot of? Bugs. Maybe you've tried it four times over the years but after a short trial three years ago I've been using exclusively Plasma.
It's way better than Gnome at this point, and I say this as a Gnome 2.x user. I laughed at KDE 4 back in the day.
But I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread who is bitching about Plasma has not used it in recent times. It's an absolutely fantastic, solid, polished, featureful desktop. To say otherwise is just to display your ignorance, frankly.
I hope they can come up with a solution integrated into KDE where you can have apps running on a VM but appearing as a native Kwin window... Would probably need a helper daemon running on guest OS.
I know a similar thing has been done before but would be great to have upstream support from a major DE
You can get pretty close to this with VirtualBox, which is one of two reasons I'm still using it.
I have multiple VMs running on my laptop. I can attach an external display and resize the VM windows. When detaching the display, the windows all resize back down automatically. With shared clipboard and a few other niceties, each VM feels pretty close to a native experience.
I have single-application VMs (e.g., the one that hosts my daily-driver browser environment that I'm typing into right now); those run a lightly customized openbox environment and the application is full-screened inside the VM. Those really feel like a Qubes-like experience, like a native application but inside a VM.
I also have purpose-specific VMs. For example, anytime I get started on a new contract, I spin up a new VM for it. All credentials, dev tooling, files, etc. for that project are contained inside that VM. I typically set it up so that there are multiple virtual desktops on my host environment, but a single desktop inside the VM; alt-tab switches tasks inside the VM but not the host environment. So, it's easy to switch "into" the project VM, work there for a while as naturally as I would if everything were native, and then switch out again as needed.
I really really want to swap all of the VirtualBox bits out with QEMU or KVM, but those aren't quite as polished just yet -- despite VirtualBox's numerous and sometimes work-stopping bugs, and the ever-looming threat of Oracle's litigation team.
That's because WSL2 implements an X11 client and sets the DISPLAY variable. X11 network transparency does the rest. You can do the same on Linux, as long as you're to learn how X11 arcane permission system works.
The current architecture is wayland based, with weston and an RDP backend, and the Windows host running an RDP client. X11 apps run on Xwayland within WSL2, so ultimately rendered on the same RDP client.
Windows implements and X11 _server_ (the client in X11 jargon is the app, which if remote works on a remote server - yeah it's confusing. You can have the X11 server on a thin client showing data from an X11 client running on a remote server). They also added Wayland support, too.
Yeah - I just want to be able to run Office in my Linux desktop - I don't care if the windows VM instance takes an extra 8gb ram, I just want it to work seamlessly
Parallels does it on macOS and it works. Windows also provides a way to RDP individual applications so it's "just" a matter of the client hiding the seam.
None of the current solutions support this. Only if you fallback to X11 forwarding, but then it's not going to be seamless because it requires setup on guests.
Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, this was my conclusion last year when researching again this space (since we're talking about virtualization support, thanks again RedHat for deprecating SPICE /s).
I've read that it's possible in Windows' RDP, but haven't found a Linux client/server setup that supports that.
> It's also significantly more responsive than any libvirt framebuffer.
I was pretty bullish on SPICE last year, with hardware acceleration enabled it was great. Not game streaming software latencies, but the seamless host-guest VM integration and usb/smart card redirection where features that I really desired for my workflows.
IIRC Parallels can/could do this (on a Mac anyway) but I can’t find the specific feature. You could like run Excel or something and it would be just the native Windows interface window, but on your MacOS desktop.
Nice, having a new alternative to virt-manager is great, especially a Qt one. Unfortunate it's using Kirigami and Qt Quick, I always felt the appearance and functionality is much worse compared to Qt Widgets.
Indeed, an alternative to virt-manager would be more than welcome. "What, you want to search the XML for a text string? Why would you want to do that? Undo? That's crazy talk!"
I had hoped KDE was over the K-named thing, but I guess not. At least Karton is better than Kvirt-manager.
Karton is German for cardboard and is often used as short for Karton Schachtel (cardboard box), so I guess it's about boxing. A lot of the time the German word for something is similar to the English word just with a K instead of a C. And I think a lot of KDE developers are German. So that makes sense to me.
Yeah, that must be why plasma has always felt so janky to me... Even just simple stuff like simple menu launcher or task manager I can always get into an unexpected state or weird inconsistent behaviour...
I like KDE apps though, usually end up using those together with something like lxqt or xfce
In general my feeling on the KDE design is that heavily outshines Windows, which consistently delivers some of the worst design work I have ever seen on a desktop.
Do we really need another GUI for kvm/qemu? I thought https://cockpit-project.org cover the idea to develop something like Karton, but who am I to think so =)
Web interfaces are fine for advanced users, but they suck for "standard" users. VMs are hard enough to understand for your average user; the more your UI looks like VirtualBox or VMWare the better
It still sounds the same for any Spanish speaker. The accent it's just an stress mark. And we use the k for kilos and lots of daily words, such as kiwi or kiosko.
It is a curious fact that grasshoppers have their ears in their legs. Curious, interesting and as relevant to the discourse as the fact that French is a Romance language. Maybe you intended to respond elsewhere in this thread?
Why "finally"?
To me, KDE's job should be to organize and render windows, application launcher icons, and the like
If I want a virtual machine, I'll use a virtual machine for that
All this "KDE suite" stuff and what not is unnecesarry - some of these are good pieces of software that I like to use, but there's no reason they need any integration with a desktop environment (arguably a few basics like a file manager, VTE and plain text editor are expected and fine but in theory also can be wholly separate)
Also, any integration attempts like making the icons a common asset rather than each application have their own, _fail_ and make things worse, with these integrations applications less often have working icons at all, and more often have mistakes like black icons against a black background making them invisible
> To me, KDE's job should be to organize and render windows, application launcher icons, and the like
I believe you are confusing Plasma, which is KDE's desktop environment, and the KDE Project, which also hosts a lot of applications that can be used with or without Plasma, many of which are multiplatforms. Even on Windows one can use a lot of KDE apps without using their desktop environment, Plasma. It's also totally possible to use Plasma without any of the KDE apps, not even the file manager (Dolphin), the VTE (Konsole), or the simple text editor (Kwrite).
Historically, the desktop environment was KDE (Kool Desktop Environment), but it's been quite a long time since the DE is one among many software that the KDE project works on.
That said, I 100% agree with you on icons, and never used an icon theme :).
KDE has been building tools for decades now. Browsers, email clients, contacts management, you name it. KDE 1 already included a file explorer and [was already developing an office suite at the time](https://kde.org/announcements/1-2-3/1.0/). KDE's suite goes back to its very beginnings.
Plasma is only a small part of KDE's toolkit, and that's why KDE is so popular. Hell, most of Plasma has no business being part of a window manager.
If you just want something to render windows, there are much more minimalist alternatives, such as LXDE, Hyprland, Sway, i3, and so on.
> KDE has been building tools for decades now. Browsers, email clients, contacts management, you name it.
Yes, and it has to be said that the most popular browser engine (used in Chrome, Safari, Opera, Edge, …) has its root in the KDE project as WebKit was originally a fork of KHTML :).
> Also, any integration attempts like making the icons a common asset rather than each application have their own, _fail_ and make things worse, with these integrations applications less often have working icons at all, and more often have mistakes like black icons against a black background making them invisible
One thing the GNOME community got right, despite the clamour and gnashing of teeth.
https://stopthemingmy.app/
Consistent cross-app theming support is a pipe dream from the 90s that has never worked, except in manicured screenshots to get karma points on /r/unixporn
The linked site goes against everything the Linux* platform has historically stood for and frankly just sounds like designers whining that they can't design for computers like they used to for print. I see the same fight against customization on the web, where designers keep asking for ways to, for example, override font and font size preferences, default widget styling, prevent/hijack zoom/select/search/context/whatever.
Your UI is a collection of input/output widgets. The vast majority of apps have maybe one or two app-specific widgets and the rest are completely standard. Why the hell do so many developers insist on styling every stupid textbox just they way they like it?? No, fuck you, a textbox is a textbox, your textbox isn't special, if I want texboxes on my screen to be in purple comic sans on a green background, that's exactly what they should look like.
The reason why apps break when custom themes are applied is almost always because a developer made a "white box with a grey border and black text" instead of a "--bg-surface-color box with a --border-color border and --fg-primary-color text".
It's the same with icons - if you want a homepage button, reference the "home" icon. If you want a house/flat/skyscraper/boathouse dropdown, reference the "house" icon. If you use "home" to show a house because that's what it is on your theme, don't be surprised (let alone angry) that I've set home to a picture of a cat and now your dropdown makes no sense.
Yes, sometimes the platform doesn't give you enough tools to adhere to the system theme (although most apps aren't complex enough to run into that), but there are usually workarounds or you can open a bug report. Most "modern" developers, however, just don't. They draw their UI in Figma and set out to make it in code, pixel-for-pixel if possible.
"Right" is a bit of a stretch. Manicured screenshots are a tiny subset of theming requirements. People went to great lengths to theme GTK because, for the longest time, Adwaita was truly atrocious, with poor contrast in inactive windows and retina-burning acid active colours.
KDE solved 99% of the theming requirements by just allowing color customisation and shipping with a default theme that doesn't suck too badly.
It works pretty well for Qt apps though. They just theme the titlebar and some things like fonts.
I don't want every app to have a different look or 'brand' as that page says. I want my system to be consistent.
the last version of plasma is here to prove your wrong.
open the color panel and tick the option "tint window title bar with accent color"... which used to be just the window decorator title and borders. ... now some dev wanting to post screenshots on Reddit decided the accent color should be a light pastel tone that can be applied to the top elements of the qt application, bringing back the worst of gnome 2 era.
It did for me. Zukitre, which is gray neutral, and Papirus or any uber complete icon theme. Problem solved.
I moved (back) to sway exactly for these reasons. Sure there should be integration between different part of the systems, but each part should be compartmentalized. Both gnome and kde are fine environments but only if you subscribed to the whole thing. XFCE is more modular than both.
This. I tried Neon Stable a while ago and it felt like the developers were already spread thin across the KDE ecosystem. I think more projects like this (while not otherwise intended) will only exacerbate these issues.
For some reason I doubt this summer of code project by a university student will take meaningful development resources from the rest of KDE.
I love how 95% of the comments are about anything but the effing article.
Looking forward to a new VM manager. virt-manager is what I use and it's not very maintained: it still has issues on a HiDPI screen where scaling is all messed up. GNOME Boxes is both buggy and featureless in the usual GNOME sense, haven't found much use for it. I think all the focus has been on the virsh CLI and we haven't had a decent VM GUI in a while.
I use Arch and love KDE Plasma. It even has a blue light filter. Am never going back to Windows. KDE runs faster, looks nicer, does not have forced adware and telemetry. Great daily driver.
I have been playing with Cachy and Plasma in a VM and I am probably going to install that on my next PC build that I am planning. I am currently dual booting Ubuntu and Windows. I haven't logged into windows in over 6 months so I probably won't even setup dual boot with my next machine.
Using Cachy after testing some distros. I tried Nobara but it was too limited. Before this I've used Debian based distros (ubuntu, debian), Redhat/RPM (Redhat, Mandrake, OpenSuSe) and even Gentoo.
So far I really like Cachy. It's been great for the bit of gaming I do. I had a bit of audio grief, but installing a different kernel seemed to have fixed the issue. Overall I'm pretty damn happy with it. It was much easier than default Arch. I tried Endeavour and though it was nice, there was something about it I didn't quite like (I don't recall what). I'm off Windows entirely - between shoving their AI stuff and Ads everywhere, after decades of off and on use, Linux is my forever home.
And yeah, KDE is pretty nice and solid now.
I also really like the BTRFS file system which I didn't know about until installing Cachy. I like the idea of being able to go to a snapshot before I messed something up or a system update did.
I figure if I ever need anything Windows related, I will just load windows in a VM. Gaming wise, mostly the only games you can't play on Linux are Windows games with root kit level anti-cheats. Not sure if that is a downside...
The (much more complicated) middle ground is to put a second GPU in your PC, boot Linux with that GPU, and then reserve the primary GPU for your gaming virtual machine (and pin CPU cores so cache isn't useless while gaming). End result: more reliable gaming experience in a sandboxed environment. There are some anticheats that will detect you're in a VM and lock you out, but there are ways around that if you're persistent enough. Or just don't play such games, which is my preferred approach.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/PCI_passthrough_via_OVMF#Wi...
If you need an instance of windows at random periods of time, you can always run it as a VM with VirtualBox or KVM/Qemu... or Karton as headlined in the article.
That is what I use as my main machine - https://i.imgur.com/hbDzVus.png I have been on this setup for a while and it is absolutely the best - clean, fast and customizable.
I too have been on CachyOS for 6 months, dual boot but have no need to boot into Windows.
I am running a modern PC (z790, i9-14400k, RTX 4070-Ti)
My main concern was gaming on Linux and I have been pleasantly surprised at the limited issues I have had -- only minor things.
I have recently played around with Gnome-boxes and seems to do the trick although it would be nice have GPU passthrough.
I love CachyOS and the Plasma DE and do not plan to return to Windows.
I cane back to plasma after about year of gnome. It made me realize how much I dislike gnome. There are just so many issues. Inhad to solve them with extensions, but then it broke on updates. I couldn't get it to have English as language but ISO units.
I had to install an extra app to control startup applications.
Fractional scaling and several displays was wonky, made screen recording impossible. My 60fps display has a stuttery mouse pointer.
Hiding keyboard layouts like Swedish Sami or svdvorak didn't make things better.
Copy and paste not working cross screens (wtf?). Drag and drop not working if you switch windows using alt+tab. Context menus locking focus from the whole desktop: open the nautilus file transfer dialogue and suddenly I couldn't click anywhere else than in nautilus. Having it open and trying to interact with another app just wouldn't work.
At the end had accidentally tried KDE in a VM and realized I wouldn't tolerate a hammer behaving badly. I went back to opensuse the same day.
It's really sad what happened with Gnome3.
Gnome2 was a good functional desktop, sure it was copying the 2000s with windows 98/2000 style, but it worked. Hell, even OpenStep is more functional than Gnome3 as a daily computer interface.
Gnome3 targeted a weird mix of incompatible devices, like a windows 8 interface, and kinda failed as a design given the devices it optimized for never took over the market. There's not that many tablets running Gnome or touchscreen laptops anymore.
It's almost like Android took the design team by complete surprise, while they tried to make desktops a tablet experience, but failed at doing both.
> Gnome3 targeted a weird mix of incompatible devices, like a windows 8 interface, and kinda failed as a design given the devices it optimized for never took over the market.
I'm not sure about that. Convertible laptops are quite popular as a product category, and GNOME 3 works great on those. Besides, MATE and Xfce are still around if you prefer a traditional desktop interface.
FWIW (not much) but I love Gnome3.
I have my Arch Gnome3 setup that resembles a tiling window manager... a la as demonstrated by Typecraft - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1kZd1f724U
I used to run Hyperland but was tired of constantly tweaking it... so this is good and easy enough.
Nice, I still want to dive into Niri or PaperWM (Niri is inspired by PaperWM but more minimal, needs Wayland and written in Rust where PaperWM is a WM on top of Gnome).
I hear good things about COSMIC as well. But I'm too busy being productive at the moment to mess up my well working NixOS/Vanilla-Gnome based laptop :)
GNOME has great software, nice UI, horrible UX. It's like as if the designers actively tried to make their software as opinionated and as castrated as they physically could
GNOME is nice, but only if you only GNOME. Any attempt to alter the linux ecosystem beneath will result in a lot of pain.
> I went back to opensuse the same day.
Such an underrated set of distros.
I tried KDE 1.0 two decades ago. Although it looked like a copy of windows ideas in some points, it already seemed better even at the time.
KDE 1 was clearly a 'copy' of CDE, hence the name. KDE 2 was much more windows like.
Kde 3 was released over two decades ago in 2002.
It was better up until about version 3. Then KDE got worse and Windows got better.
I think KDE is back in top again.
KDE 4 was the bad one, not 3.
In fact, it was so unpopular that it inspired a fork of KDE 3: https://www.trinitydesktop.org/
(IMHO, later versions of KDE got good, but even today I understand the appeal of just sticking to the same thing)
And it still exists, by looking at the NEWS section! That's a long grudge to hold :)
I don't know that it's a grudge per se; people liked KDE 3, so they forked it and stayed on the working thing that they liked. Don't fix what isn't broken.
Yeah it's kinda the same thing that happened to gnome 2 though it wasn't really a fork but rather a respawn in the form of cinnamon.
I think you're thinking of MATE. Cinnamon is a fork of GNOME 3.
Never understood that part really. I was using KDE 4 since 3.97rc2 (which wasn't easy to install and still had some glitches) and absolutely loved it.
I wanted to use KDE 4 when it released, but it kept crashing on my machine. I would update it every once in a while and try again but issue would always pop up. By the time "plasma 4.4 is stable" was declared, I had lost interest and started using tiling window managers .
That said KDE 6 is pretty solid. I rarely have issues with it.
It had a lot less features than kde3, all the semantic desktop stuff didn't work and kdepim didn't work either But they did run at 100% cpu very often.
I remember it being very slow and buggy, and missing a lot of features I liked in 3.5. Dolphin also felt like a big downgrade from Konqueror. I didn't start liking KDE again until Plasma 5.
Really? Interesting. I loved KDE3, but hated KDE4 so much (slow, unintuitive UI, bugs) that I haven't looked at it since, preferring Xfce instead. I guess I could give it a spin again...
Dude I've been running Ubuntu with Plasma for almost 3 years now as a daily, and it's perfect. It's what windows 7 could've been. Maybe I'm stuck in my ways, but as a dotnet and devops guy, 2020s was the perfect confluence of open source, works on Linux tooling to fully switch over. Rider, datagrip and vscode, and I don't have to deal with docker or wsl anymore. It's beautiful. I only boot into windows now when I have to deal with .net framework OG stuff, and I'm pretty sure I could kill a weekend and get a VM to boot from my windows nvme so I never have to leave.
What KDE needs isn't new features but less bugs.
FWIW I have always complained about KDE's bugs, but since 6.3 I haven't suffered from anything major for the first time in a decade. Worth checking it out again if you haven't in a while.
Yeah it's solid, I usually only reboot my desktop once a month for updates and I can't recall the last time it crashed (desktop). Sure the occasional app will crash but I don't blame that on Plasma. The other thing I do is run an LTS version of Ubuntu, I got too old to be bothered with updating every 6 months
That's something I think as well. I've tried 4 times through the years, and KDE always felt less stable and solid than Gnome. I guess it's the configurability of KDE that makes it that way.
I like the concept, but I guess maintaining it is no easy task, and people is more motivated to add things than fix them.
In my experience, KDE is more responsive (especially under load) but its code base is less stable. It makes sense: Gnome is pretty minimalist in terms of available UI, uses JavaScript and shell scripts to provide integrations, and exposes quite a small native surface area.
On the other side, KDE consists of almost exclusively native (C++) code, although I believe some tools are written in Python. Great for performance, but C++ has a reputation for a reason.
For what it's worth, the last major release has been very stable. It has also always been stable for me on my Steam Deck. I have a feeling KDE's issues are similar to WordPress': external plugins hooking deep into the native API, making it seem like the software they're integrating with is unstable.
KDE lost me when they moved from the relatively stable (and - let's face it - pretty Windows 9x-style) KDE 3.5 to KDE 4. It was promised as a quantum leap, but Plasma came over as unstable, unfinished, and lacking a lot of the functionality I came to love with the 3.5 stack.
In the end, I gave up, went to window managers instead to full DEs, then to i3, and now am on a Mac.
Still, I remember 3.5 fondly. The last good Linux Desktop Environment (Gnome tried so hard, but always was a bit too 'our way or the highway' when KDE allowed for some customization)
KDE 3 to KDE 4 transition really was painful, it pushed me away as well, but it also happened over 15 years ago. I gave it a shot a few years back, and it was great, much better than modern-day Gnome in my opinion.
Thanks for stating this. It puzzles me how people can still hold a grudge against the transition to KDE4 that happened back in early 2008. It took a while but even KDE4 got pretty good. KDE6 is great and if you follow Nate Graham's blog, you can see the improvements that go into it every week.
https://blogs.kde.org/authors/nategraham/
> It puzzles me how people can still hold a grudge against the transition to KDE4 that happened back in early 2008.
I don't think it's people holding a grudge, I think it's people who got burned and are hesitant to touch that burner again because they don't want to get burned twice.
It's not really windows 9x style? It's highly configurable so you can make it look like that but you don't have to. Even without theming it.
I find it a lot more sensible than windows especially because the latter started embedding ads and "helpful suggestions" everywhere in the UI.
Early versions of KDE 4.0 were terrible, and it lasted for a couple of years, but I've found later versions quite solid. Early versions of KDE 5 were relatively stable but were lacking features. I find late 5.X versions and all 6.X version quite robust.
There are still bugs but they do seem to be ironing them out, they go in the right direction.
The only big bugs I notice these days are the occasionnal plasmashell crashes but it comes back on its own. KWin doesn't crash and that's fortunate because on Wayland, that would bring down non KDE apps.
I exclusively use plasma, I'm quite sensitive to instabilities, it's not an issue for me with KDE.
I did avoid the first years of KDE 4 and was using GNOME at that time.
Have you tried Trinity?
This was true years ago but Gnome slowly removed every feature I liked and put me on an update treadmill for each and every plug-in, and I needed a bunch of them for basic functionality normal desktops provide.
A trivial example: keeping a working weather widget on my taskbar for an update cycle without breaking it was too much to ask for Gnome. I put up with this kind of thing for YEARS before switching to Plasma. Widgets for your taskbar and stable plug-in APIs should be table stakes for a desktop environment, especially if its whole philosophy is one that the core product should be minimal and most functionality should be in plugins.
You know what KDE has? Features. You know what it doesn't have a lot of? Bugs. Maybe you've tried it four times over the years but after a short trial three years ago I've been using exclusively Plasma.
It's way better than Gnome at this point, and I say this as a Gnome 2.x user. I laughed at KDE 4 back in the day.
But I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread who is bitching about Plasma has not used it in recent times. It's an absolutely fantastic, solid, polished, featureful desktop. To say otherwise is just to display your ignorance, frankly.
I hope they can come up with a solution integrated into KDE where you can have apps running on a VM but appearing as a native Kwin window... Would probably need a helper daemon running on guest OS.
I know a similar thing has been done before but would be great to have upstream support from a major DE
You can get pretty close to this with VirtualBox, which is one of two reasons I'm still using it.
I have multiple VMs running on my laptop. I can attach an external display and resize the VM windows. When detaching the display, the windows all resize back down automatically. With shared clipboard and a few other niceties, each VM feels pretty close to a native experience.
I have single-application VMs (e.g., the one that hosts my daily-driver browser environment that I'm typing into right now); those run a lightly customized openbox environment and the application is full-screened inside the VM. Those really feel like a Qubes-like experience, like a native application but inside a VM.
I also have purpose-specific VMs. For example, anytime I get started on a new contract, I spin up a new VM for it. All credentials, dev tooling, files, etc. for that project are contained inside that VM. I typically set it up so that there are multiple virtual desktops on my host environment, but a single desktop inside the VM; alt-tab switches tasks inside the VM but not the host environment. So, it's easy to switch "into" the project VM, work there for a while as naturally as I would if everything were native, and then switch out again as needed.
I really really want to swap all of the VirtualBox bits out with QEMU or KVM, but those aren't quite as polished just yet -- despite VirtualBox's numerous and sometimes work-stopping bugs, and the ever-looming threat of Oracle's litigation team.
Surprisingly Windows support this with their WSL2. It caught me off guard when i tried to run "nautilus" just for fun.
That's because WSL2 implements an X11 client and sets the DISPLAY variable. X11 network transparency does the rest. You can do the same on Linux, as long as you're to learn how X11 arcane permission system works.
The current architecture is wayland based, with weston and an RDP backend, and the Windows host running an RDP client. X11 apps run on Xwayland within WSL2, so ultimately rendered on the same RDP client.
Windows implements and X11 _server_ (the client in X11 jargon is the app, which if remote works on a remote server - yeah it's confusing. You can have the X11 server on a thin client showing data from an X11 client running on a remote server). They also added Wayland support, too.
`xhost +`
Problem solved
ChromeOS also supports this, making the OS experience somewhat tolerable.
That requires a bit of hacking in general, it's not that easy to achieve that with closed source OSes. Windows supports that via RDP, btw.
You could maybe do something easier with debboostrap and chroot mounting without needing to waste resources on vm management.
I am not certain if this was the implication but Vms may not be just abot linux guests
Yeah - I just want to be able to run Office in my Linux desktop - I don't care if the windows VM instance takes an extra 8gb ram, I just want it to work seamlessly
microsoft has a monetary incentive to never allow that. although you can do something like that with rdp in xorg
Parallels does it on macOS and it works. Windows also provides a way to RDP individual applications so it's "just" a matter of the client hiding the seam.
Complete isolation = virtual machine
None of the current solutions support this. Only if you fallback to X11 forwarding, but then it's not going to be seamless because it requires setup on guests.
Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, this was my conclusion last year when researching again this space (since we're talking about virtualization support, thanks again RedHat for deprecating SPICE /s).
I've read that it's possible in Windows' RDP, but haven't found a Linux client/server setup that supports that.
> I've read that it's possible in Windows' RDP, but haven't found a Linux client/server setup that supports that.
FreeRDP has supported this for over 10 years as a client. I don't know about non-windows servers: https://files.catbox.moe/roso8c.png
It's also significantly more responsive than any libvirt framebuffer.
> It's also significantly more responsive than any libvirt framebuffer.
I was pretty bullish on SPICE last year, with hardware acceleration enabled it was great. Not game streaming software latencies, but the seamless host-guest VM integration and usb/smart card redirection where features that I really desired for my workflows.
IIRC Parallels can/could do this (on a Mac anyway) but I can’t find the specific feature. You could like run Excel or something and it would be just the native Windows interface window, but on your MacOS desktop.
Parallels calls that "Coherence mode": https://kb.parallels.com/4670
Nice, having a new alternative to virt-manager is great, especially a Qt one. Unfortunate it's using Kirigami and Qt Quick, I always felt the appearance and functionality is much worse compared to Qt Widgets.
Indeed, an alternative to virt-manager would be more than welcome. "What, you want to search the XML for a text string? Why would you want to do that? Undo? That's crazy talk!"
I had hoped KDE was over the K-named thing, but I guess not. At least Karton is better than Kvirt-manager.
Karton is German for cardboard and is often used as short for Karton Schachtel (cardboard box), so I guess it's about boxing. A lot of the time the German word for something is similar to the English word just with a K instead of a C. And I think a lot of KDE developers are German. So that makes sense to me.
Plasma's shell is in Kirigami and Qt Quick, it couldn't be more consistent and integrated into the DE than that.
Yeah, that must be why plasma has always felt so janky to me... Even just simple stuff like simple menu launcher or task manager I can always get into an unexpected state or weird inconsistent behaviour...
I like KDE apps though, usually end up using those together with something like lxqt or xfce
Unfortunate it's using Kirigami and Qt Quick, I always felt the appearance and functionality is much worse compared to Qt Widgets.
That's the QML render jank that requires a commercial Qt license to avoid. But hey at least you get to write JSON-like syntax to build apps.
I think Qt Quick is a pretty generic level, you can make a lot of different interfaces with it. Kirigami is more specific.
I really like KDE in general, and how full featured it is, but their design just feels dated compared to all modern OSes and other DMs on Linux...
The only reason why I'm a gnome user, it's because of that.
And yes, I know I can just customize, but everytime I try, it just make KDE more sluggish for some reason, and doesn't really feels natural.
It's interesting to me that this is so common. I feel exactly the opposite way, as if KDE is the only one that feels modern and good-looking.
Not saying you're wrong, just that it's interesting how much perspectives differ on design, I suppose.
I agree, but also if they don't add a stupid hamburger menu I'm switching back to KDE!
Oh no I just checked and they also drank the kool-aid. Seems like you can turn it off at least.
Have you tried Plasma 6 yet? To me it feels way more modern than Gnome.
In general my feeling on the KDE design is that heavily outshines Windows, which consistently delivers some of the worst design work I have ever seen on a desktop.
Do we really need another GUI for kvm/qemu? I thought https://cockpit-project.org cover the idea to develop something like Karton, but who am I to think so =)
I always welcome competition but virt-manager has been good enough for me for a while now.
Web interfaces are fine for advanced users, but they suck for "standard" users. VMs are hard enough to understand for your average user; the more your UI looks like VirtualBox or VMWare the better
Nice!
I've been using virt-manager for a long time, but more KDE native solution is welcome.
Still waiting for virt-manager to add support for Vulkan rendering through libvirt.
Side note, not sure if it's specific to Kirigami, but a bunch of interfaces which use it have this excessive margin spacing feel to them.
Something like that happens with print-manager's configuration which is using Kirigami supposedly too.
What ever happened to aqemu? That was my favorite frontend but it seems to have been languishing for a decade.
Developer ran a Kickstarter to fund new features a while back that didn't take off unfortunately.
Karton, sounds like "cartón" but with the traditional K added to the start of the names in KDE programs.
It is also the German shorthand name for carton/cardboard.
Same in Spanish. Cardboard.
Yes but there it's with a C again. And an accent on the o.
It still sounds the same for any Spanish speaker. The accent it's just an stress mark. And we use the k for kilos and lots of daily words, such as kiwi or kiosko.
Same in Polish
There's also Bottles: https://usebottles.com/
Karton, Dutch for 'cardboard'. Chosen because it is a tool to handle (virtual) boxes, maybe?
No need to contact the Dutch for this one - I assume it's just "carton" with the C replaced with K
Ah, but the Dutch can get there without indirection which means they're faster than those label-swapping Anglo- and Francophones.
I would have gone with a creative name like kvm.
French is not Germanic. It's a Romance language, so closer to Spanish, Italian, Portuguese etc
English, German and Dutch are Germanic.
It is a curious fact that grasshoppers have their ears in their legs. Curious, interesting and as relevant to the discourse as the fact that French is a Romance language. Maybe you intended to respond elsewhere in this thread?
I assumed it was a mild allusion to VirtualBox, which I always call vbox
Could be German as well.
English, Dutch and German are all ... Germanic.
English is the weird one, except for the others.
If a word is the same in italian and in english, 99% of the times it doesn't have german origins.
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